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Pinguino 47J53
28-05-2013, 11:59 AM, (This post was last modified: 28-05-2013, 12:41 PM by regis.)
#1
Pinguino 47J53
Hi 8-bit lovers,
We are about to start the production of a new Pinguino board. It won't be a kit this time but a 6-layer PCB with SMD 0603 components (at least most of them).
   
We would like to get your opinion and suggestion.
Here are some specifications :

- micro-controller : PIC18F47J53 (TQFP44 package)

128KB Program Memory
3800 RAM Bytes
CPU Speed up to 48MHz (12 MIPS)
9 nA Deep Sleep mode (Watch Webinar)
200nA Sleep mode (RAM retention)
700nA Real Time Clock & Calendar operation in Sleep modes
330nA Watch Dog Timer operation in Sleep modes
Integrated full speed USB 2.0
Deep Sleep mode ideal for battery applications
Peripheral Pin Select for mapping digital peripherals to various I/O for design flexibility
Hardware RTCC provides clock, calendar & alarm functions
Charge Time Measurement Unit (CTMU) supports capacitive touch screens
3 Enhanced Capture / Compare / PWM modules
2 MSSP serial ports for SPI or I2C™ communication
2 Enhanced USART modules
8-bit Parallel port
Three analog comparators
13 ch, 12-bit ADC
Self programming Flash supports 10k erase/write cycles & 20 years retention
Operating voltage 2.0 - 3.6V, 5.5V tolerant digital inputs

- Board :

80x36mm (LCD2x16 dimension)
31 I/O available (Port B, Port C, Port D = 8-bit parallel Port and 8 Analog I/O Port)
ICSP connector (for external programmer such as Microchip Pickit 3)
USB connector (for USB communication and USB programming)
LCD connector (for LCD2x16 and LCD TFT display in 8-bit mode)
8MHz crystal (primary oscillator)
32768 Hz crystal (can be connected trough flat PCB jumpers to feed RTCC or Timer1)
10k trimmer (to control LCD contrast for ex.)
4.7K pull-ups resistors on I2C1 and I2C2 pins (can be connected or disconnected trough flat pcb jumpers)
Power and User Led
4x3mm fixing holes

- Power

5V and 3.3V regulated with ASM1117-3.3 and 5.5 devices
Power adapter (center negative) : 6.5-12V
USB
Battery : 2.8-4V (non-regulated in order to run low-power modes)
VIN pin

Schematics :

.pdf   Pinguino47j53.pdf (Size: 120.71 KB / Downloads: 161)
It is easier to complain than it is to do, but it is better to do than it is to complain.
Reply
28-05-2013, 12:58 PM,
#2
RE: Pinguino 47J53
Far too little RAM for me. Good board for some others I guess.

Target price?

John
Reply
28-05-2013, 02:37 PM, (This post was last modified: 28-05-2013, 02:52 PM by trollpatsch.)
#3
RE: Pinguino 47J53
Wow, sounds quite intriguing! Besides mere pin count (and maybe the brand new J94ers), the 47j53 is Microchip's top USB eight-bitter and with 128K flash, almost 4K RAM, RTC, deep sleep and the 12bit A/D (how trustworthy are those, any experiences?) the most interesting one I think.

Please reassure to consider the errata sheet, AFAIK there are issues about UART and I2C, among others. Note that the 5V tolerance is restricted to some "digital only" pins. More restrictions may apply, which are not immedately apparent. I believe there are (or were) quite cheap TQFPs (47J53 and 45J50) floating around markets, but take care, those are singularly boxed, not exactly ideal for pick-and-place machines.

Wow, 6-layer PCB?

Since the pinout is more or less the same for quite a selection of (micro) chips, you might want to consider bypassing things like the voltage regulation or the crystal (and then possibly expose the now freed pins to the user e.g. via pin headers) for low-cost variants using the new 5V xtal-free 18F45K50, for instance? This family has just 32K flash and 2K RAM (at max.), but re-gained some EEPROM. (According to some M/C field engineers, flash mem is quite 'expensive' on the K process). By the way, as there were 'rumors' about running the 26J50's USB module on internal clock even on "full" speed: _Could_ this be relevant for the x5J53 as well? Should be close relatives. Any experiences, anyone? If so, the afforementioned xtal bypassing/pin-exposing should really be quite interesting. (I know it might be risky, reducing the usable temperature range or not working on all chips a.s.o, so that the xtal is more than just an "if-all-else-fails", yet still very interesting for low-cost variants: The 45J50 should fit in place perfectly ..)

Regis, I noticed You not only added 14K50 and x5K50 support to the bootloader, but also started with the so called "14K50 replacement" 16F145x (which are USB PIC16 rather than PIC18 of course, although being somewhat special)? Is this possible at all? You must be a wizard ... And speaking of magic it should even be possible to implement low (or single) voltage programming for 8 bit pinguino, maybe even from within the bootloader so that any USB pinguino should be enabled to be used as programmer for almost any (LVP enabled) 18F, and even some new 16F PICs, or to "clone itself" requiring nothing more than just a suitable voltage ("clone warrior to go") ...

Just some ideas, good luck and thank You for all Your excellent work!

One more issue I stumbled across: Why GND on the power jack CENTER pin? Most power supplies I know have POSITIVE voltage on the center (making GND some sort of shield for the jack). This might be due to some security considerations, but would render most existing power supplies useless.
Reply
28-05-2013, 06:59 PM,
#4
RE: Pinguino 47J53
Thank you for your constructive feedback.
My answers below :

(28-05-2013, 02:37 PM)trollpatsch Wrote: Wow, sounds quite intriguing! Besides mere pin count (and maybe the brand new J94ers), the 47j53 is Microchip's top USB eight-bitter and with 128K flash, almost 4K RAM, RTC, deep sleep and the 12bit A/D (how trustworthy are those, any experiences?) the most interesting one I think.
Yes, one could always find a more interesting chip for a given application but I think 47j53 is one of the best candidate for prototyping platform and general purpose applications.
Quote:Please reassure to consider the errata sheet, AFAIK there are issues about UART and I2C, among others. Note that the 5V tolerance is restricted to some "digital only" pins. More restrictions may apply, which are not immedately apparent. I believe there are (or were) quite cheap TQFPs (47J53 and 45J50) floating around markets, but take care, those are singularly boxed, not exactly ideal for pick-and-place machines.
I did it. Most of errata can be fixed by software and I took care about required VDDCORE low-ESR 10uF capacitor.
Never heard about those cheap TQFPs, ours will come from Microchipdirect ...
Quote:Wow, 6-layer PCB?
6-layer PCB are moderately priced nowadays and there is quite a lot of components on a little space.
Quote:Since the pinout is more or less the same for quite a selection of (micro) chips, you might want to consider bypassing things like the voltage regulation or the crystal (and then possibly expose the now freed pins to the user e.g. via pin headers) for low-cost variants using the new 5V xtal-free 18F45K50, for instance? This family has just 32K flash and 2K RAM (at max.), but re-gained some EEPROM. (According to some M/C field engineers, flash mem is quite 'expensive' on the K process).
... and these low-cost chips are already supported by the new bootloader. Pinguino 45k50 could be my next design.
Quote:By the way, as there were 'rumors' about running the 26J50's USB module on internal clock even on "full" speed: _Could_ this be relevant for the x5J53 as well? Should be close relatives. Any experiences, anyone? If so, the afforementioned xtal bypassing/pin-exposing should really be quite interesting. (I know it might be risky, reducing the usable temperature range or not working on all chips a.s.o, so that the xtal is more than just an "if-all-else-fails", yet still very interesting for low-cost variants: The 45J50 should fit in place perfectly ..)
There are not only rumors Wink. 26j50's but also 27j53's internal clock is accurate enough to run USB module at full speed. At least, I was able to program/run some of Pinguino's examples on these 2 chips with bootloader v4.x. However, I never deeply tested it and as you said it might be a bit risky (also financially for me) to make such a board if it doesn't work.
[/quote]
Regis, I noticed You not only added 14K50 and x5K50 support to the bootloader, but also started with the so called "14K50 replacement" 16F145x (which are USB PIC16 rather than PIC18 of course, although being somewhat special)? Is this possible at all? You must be a wizard
[/quote]
I started to adapt bootloader code to this chip but I never had time to finish. I should order some samples for the fun but I don't have so many spare time. However, 16f1455 has only 14K flash memory and above all 1K RAM which is only good enough to run simple application with Pinguino. So I don't know if it's worth it.
Quote: ... And speaking of magic it should even be possible to implement low (or single) voltage programming for 8 bit pinguino, maybe even from within the bootloader so that any USB pinguino should be enabled to be used as programmer for almost any (LVP enabled) 18F, and even some new 16F PICs, or to "clone itself" requiring nothing more than just a suitable voltage ("clone warrior to go") ...
This one is on my TODO list but, as usual, any help would be appreciated Wink.
Quote:One more issue I stumbled across: Why GND on the power jack CENTER pin? Most power supplies I know have POSITIVE voltage on the center (making GND some sort of shield for the jack). This might be due to some security considerations, but would render most existing power supplies useless.
As you know, power jacks (not only) have built-in switch. I use it to disconnect 5V from USB when external power supply is plugged (cf. schematics). No jumper is then needed to chose between USB and Ext. power.
Power supplies are quite often sold with an adapter, if not, it's very simple to swap the 2 wires ...

@pingotg : target price should be around 20€ ex. VAT
It is easier to complain than it is to do, but it is better to do than it is to complain.
Reply
01-06-2013, 10:54 PM,
#5
RE: Pinguino 47J53
(28-05-2013, 06:59 PM)regis Wrote: Thank you for your constructive feedback.
My answers below :

(28-05-2013, 02:37 PM)trollpatsch Wrote: Wow, sounds quite intriguing! Besides mere pin count (and maybe the brand new J94ers), the 47j53 is Microchip's top USB eight-bitter and with 128K flash, almost 4K RAM, RTC, deep sleep and the 12bit A/D (how trustworthy are those, any experiences?) the most interesting one I think.
Yes, one could always find a more interesting chip for a given application but I think 47j53 is one of the best candidate for prototyping platform and general purpose applications.
Quote:Please reassure to consider the errata sheet, AFAIK there are issues about UART and I2C, among others. Note that the 5V tolerance is restricted to some "digital only" pins. More restrictions may apply, which are not immedately apparent. I believe there are (or were) quite cheap TQFPs (47J53 and 45J50) floating around markets, but take care, those are singularly boxed, not exactly ideal for pick-and-place machines.
I did it. Most of errata can be fixed by software and I took care about required VDDCORE low-ESR 10uF capacitor.
Never heard about those cheap TQFPs, ours will come from Microchipdirect ...
Quote:Wow, 6-layer PCB?
6-layer PCB are moderately priced nowadays and there is quite a lot of components on a little space.
Quote:Since the pinout is more or less the same for quite a selection of (micro) chips, you might want to consider bypassing things like the voltage regulation or the crystal (and then possibly expose the now freed pins to the user e.g. via pin headers) for low-cost variants using the new 5V xtal-free 18F45K50, for instance? This family has just 32K flash and 2K RAM (at max.), but re-gained some EEPROM. (According to some M/C field engineers, flash mem is quite 'expensive' on the K process).
... and these low-cost chips are already supported by the new bootloader. Pinguino 45k50 could be my next design.
Quote:By the way, as there were 'rumors' about running the 26J50's USB module on internal clock even on "full" speed: _Could_ this be relevant for the x5J53 as well? Should be close relatives. Any experiences, anyone? If so, the afforementioned xtal bypassing/pin-exposing should really be quite interesting. (I know it might be risky, reducing the usable temperature range or not working on all chips a.s.o, so that the xtal is more than just an "if-all-else-fails", yet still very interesting for low-cost variants: The 45J50 should fit in place perfectly ..)
There are not only rumors Wink. 26j50's but also 27j53's internal clock is accurate enough to run USB module at full speed. At least, I was able to program/run some of Pinguino's examples on these 2 chips with bootloader v4.x. However, I never deeply tested it and as you said it might be a bit risky (also financially for me) to make such a board if it doesn't work.
Regis, I noticed You not only added 14K50 and x5K50 support to the bootloader, but also started with the so called "14K50 replacement" 16F145x (which are USB PIC16 rather than PIC18 of course, although being somewhat special)? Is this possible at all? You must be a wizard
[/quote]
I started to adapt bootloader code to this chip but I never had time to finish. I should order some samples for the fun but I don't have so many spare time. However, 16f1455 has only 14K flash memory and above all 1K RAM which is only good enough to run simple application with Pinguino. So I don't know if it's worth it.
Quote: ... And speaking of magic it should even be possible to implement low (or single) voltage programming for 8 bit pinguino, maybe even from within the bootloader so that any USB pinguino should be enabled to be used as programmer for almost any (LVP enabled) 18F, and even some new 16F PICs, or to "clone itself" requiring nothing more than just a suitable voltage ("clone warrior to go") ...
This one is on my TODO list but, as usual, any help would be appreciated Wink.
Quote:One more issue I stumbled across: Why GND on the power jack CENTER pin? Most power supplies I know have POSITIVE voltage on the center (making GND some sort of shield for the jack). This might be due to some security considerations, but would render most existing power supplies useless.
As you know, power jacks (not only) have built-in switch. I use it to disconnect 5V from USB when external power supply is plugged (cf. schematics). No jumper is then needed to chose between USB and Ext. power.
Power supplies are quite often sold with an adapter, if not, it's very simple to swap the 2 wires ...

@pingotg : target price should be around 20€ ex. VAT
[/quote]
REGIS,
will this chip work with I2c lcd? and will oled work with it?
thanks
fred
Reply
03-06-2013, 10:22 AM,
#6
RE: Pinguino 47J53
Quote:will this chip work with I2c lcd? and will oled work with it?
Hi Fred,
PIC18F47J53 has 2 MSSP serial ports for I2C (or SPI) communication. So you can drive any I2C (or SPI) devices included LCD and OLED displays. The board itself has no dedicated connector for such displays because there is no standard but you only need to connect SDA, SCL, 3V3 (or 5V) and GND pins to make those devices work.
It is easier to complain than it is to do, but it is better to do than it is to complain.
Reply
03-06-2013, 12:01 PM,
#7
RE: Pinguino 47J53
As for a "universal serial i/f standard connector" I suggest to consider Olimex's UEXT for general purpose designs: It incorporates I2C, SPI and (orig level/unshifted) RS232 and there is already quite a number of modules available. Of course it adds quite a footprint in its original size (and 4xJ5x could even support two of them; maybe use hi-density connectors + adapter cables?) But there may be more issues with UEXT I do not yet realize. So just an idea, no experiences so far (nor be this a recommendation).

> jacks with built-in switch
Ah, that triangle I did not manage to sort out .. Smart solution.

16f14xx: I agree, especially the 14pin devices definitively are not meant for general purpose, yet they could be quite clever & cheap specialists. Recently I made a SM-(System-Management)-Bus (~I2C) to CDC (virtual com port) adapter for BIOS debugging with a 14K50 and it works perfectly (almost a one-liner with the CCS compiler, but needs I2C slave mode and probably SM-Bus compatibility) where I could have used a 16F1454. OR use them as Low/Single Voltage programmers with integrated "universal serial to USB" interfacing development support, so one would not need RS232 level shifter (much like that smart PicKit2 serial emulation feature). Do not underestimate those just because they are PIC16: they have linear addressing modes, almost as much flash and even more RAM than the 14K50 (doubled the RAM of the 13K50!). With the two "crystal freed" additional pins, the 16F1459 even resolves the main disadvantage of my long-time-favourite 14K50 - which I have even interfaced with parallel graphic LCDs. And I have not even looked at things like that Waveform Generator ...

I am at the very start with 8 bit Pinguino, no working micro yet, so I would be of little use right now. But as soon as I "have something", I'd really love to contribute.
Reply
03-06-2013, 07:10 PM,
#8
RE: Pinguino 47J53
(03-06-2013, 10:22 AM)regis Wrote:
Quote:will this chip work with I2c lcd? and will oled work with it?
Hi Fred,
PIC18F47J53 has 2 MSSP serial ports for I2C (or SPI) communication. So you can drive any I2C (or SPI) devices included LCD and OLED displays. The board itself has no dedicated connector for such displays because there is no standard but you only need to connect SDA, SCL, 3V3 (or 5V) and GND pins to make those devices work.

regis i am interested in this board.
Reply
03-06-2013, 07:52 PM,
#9
RE: Pinguino 47J53
(03-06-2013, 07:10 PM)derf158 Wrote: regis i am interested in this board.

Smile
It is easier to complain than it is to do, but it is better to do than it is to complain.
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05-06-2013, 11:17 PM,
#10
RE: Pinguino 47J53
I have only one thing to say ...
I want it now!
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